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	<title>Comments on: California&#8217;s Water Wars: Can We Save Fisheries and Solve Water Problems?</title>
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	<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/</link>
	<description>Fly Fishing the Upper Sacramento River : Tom Chandler&#039;s Fly Fishing Life : Fly Rods are the Measure of Life</description>
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		<title>By: Tom Chandler</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49720</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Chandler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49720</guid>
		<description>I find it hard to believe that immensely expensive, publicly financed water projects are being bandied about when &quot;virtual&quot; water streams aren&#039;t being explored in a real sense.

These include things like conservation, improved groundwater and stormwater management, wastewater recycling, retirement of marginal farmlands, etc.

They typically cost less than new water projects, and yet - because no one even wants to talk about things like limiting growth (or even landscaping) in arid areas - water districts and irrigators make noises about their conservation efforts, and then start looking for new dam sites.

Until water users in arid areas start making the hard decisions about water priorities, environmental groups will force the courts to make those decisions for them. 

The peripheral canal offers some real benefits to some users (and who exactly will be paying for it?),  but simply building a peripheral canal and piping the same amount of water south would only buy a small improvement in Delta water quality. 

We don&#039;t simply need an efficient way to send more water south, we need more efficiency in water use in arid portions of the state.

For too long, those diverting water have not been confronted by the true costs of doing so, a reality which is starting to change, though slowly. 

After all, taxpayers are footing the relief efforts for those decimated by the salmon closures, and while the independent report I referenced in the article recommends that those who benefit from the peripheral canal be asked to pay for it, I can&#039;t help but notice the last state bond issue - as well as the one in the works - are aimed directly at all the state&#039;s taxpayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it hard to believe that immensely expensive, publicly financed water projects are being bandied about when &#8220;virtual&#8221; water streams aren&#8217;t being explored in a real sense.</p>
<p>These include things like conservation, improved groundwater and stormwater management, wastewater recycling, retirement of marginal farmlands, etc.</p>
<p>They typically cost less than new water projects, and yet &#8211; because no one even wants to talk about things like limiting growth (or even landscaping) in arid areas &#8211; water districts and irrigators make noises about their conservation efforts, and then start looking for new dam sites.</p>
<p>Until water users in arid areas start making the hard decisions about water priorities, environmental groups will force the courts to make those decisions for them. </p>
<p>The peripheral canal offers some real benefits to some users (and who exactly will be paying for it?),  but simply building a peripheral canal and piping the same amount of water south would only buy a small improvement in Delta water quality. </p>
<p>We don&#8217;t simply need an efficient way to send more water south, we need more efficiency in water use in arid portions of the state.</p>
<p>For too long, those diverting water have not been confronted by the true costs of doing so, a reality which is starting to change, though slowly. </p>
<p>After all, taxpayers are footing the relief efforts for those decimated by the salmon closures, and while the independent report I referenced in the article recommends that those who benefit from the peripheral canal be asked to pay for it, I can&#8217;t help but notice the last state bond issue &#8211; as well as the one in the works &#8211; are aimed directly at all the state&#8217;s taxpayers.</p>
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		<title>By: California's Water Crisis. Why? - Page 4</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49718</link>
		<dc:creator>California's Water Crisis. Why? - Page 4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49718</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8211; Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hetch Hetchy: Time to Redeem a Historic Mistake &#8211; Sierra Club California’s Water Wars: Can We Save Fisheries and Solve Water Problems? : The Trout Underground Fly&#8230;  So when people like Godiva whine about us not having water meters, what that ilk is saying is, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49673</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49673</guid>
		<description>The kind of new dams (and underground storage, and improved conveyances) I&#039;m thinking of are not taking live streams and damming them (or raising Shasta), but off-stream things like San Luis Reservoir. Temperance Flat is the only way a water supply to restore the San Joaquin (a very dubious project, but beside the point here) can be maintained. I am still not convinced Temperance Flat is a great idea, but it is a way to enhance an existing system, not a new insult to a pristine place.
If you are not familiar with the Water Education Foundation, they do an awfully good job of trying to place some facts and choices in front of us, instead of the usual shouting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The kind of new dams (and underground storage, and improved conveyances) I&#8217;m thinking of are not taking live streams and damming them (or raising Shasta), but off-stream things like San Luis Reservoir. Temperance Flat is the only way a water supply to restore the San Joaquin (a very dubious project, but beside the point here) can be maintained. I am still not convinced Temperance Flat is a great idea, but it is a way to enhance an existing system, not a new insult to a pristine place.<br />
If you are not familiar with the Water Education Foundation, they do an awfully good job of trying to place some facts and choices in front of us, instead of the usual shouting.</p>
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		<title>By: bjorn</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49672</link>
		<dc:creator>bjorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49672</guid>
		<description>Hmmm... I&#039;ll have to check on that Westlands bit, I may have misheard exactly what it was... maybe it wasn&#039;t Westlands, but 400 farmer that included Westlands.  The percentage of water used by ag in CA is something like 76% though... so my exact numbers might be off, but the general point stands.

Here are other, more vetted tidbits.

New Dams Are Not Needed â€“ The California Water Plan proves that wise investments in water conservation and efficiency, recycling and reclamation and improved groundwater management will meet current and future water needs, while supporting our growing population and economy.

Dams Will Not Drought-Proof California â€“ Even if these new dams existed today, they would be just has empty as our existing reservoirs simply because they are dependent on rainfall. Even if we began building new dams today, they would not store any additional water for more than 20 years. Increased conservation, recycling, and reclamation can provide relatively immediate instant from drought.

Dams Are Inefficient And Costly â€“ New dams will cost billions of dollars and will not produce much additional water supply (the proposed Temperance Flat Dam will store a minor amount of water 1 year out of 4), primarily because we have already built more than 1,400 dams in California and all the most productive dam sites are taken. More than 2.5 million acre-feet of water evaporates from our current surface storage reservoirs every year. Most of the dams proposed by Governor Schwarzenegger are net energy consumers (they will not produce more energy).

Dams Are Destructive â€“ Existing dams block 90% salmon spawning habitat, have contributed to the extinction or decline of 69% of Californiaâ€™s native fish species (including salmon), and have resulted in the destruction of 90% of riverside habitat. The have also decimated the cultural heritage of Native American Tribes and the commercial fishing industry (20 years ago, there were 10,000 commercial salmon fishing boats in California, this year there are none, let&#039;s hope there are more next year).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230; I&#8217;ll have to check on that Westlands bit, I may have misheard exactly what it was&#8230; maybe it wasn&#8217;t Westlands, but 400 farmer that included Westlands.  The percentage of water used by ag in CA is something like 76% though&#8230; so my exact numbers might be off, but the general point stands.</p>
<p>Here are other, more vetted tidbits.</p>
<p>New Dams Are Not Needed â€“ The California Water Plan proves that wise investments in water conservation and efficiency, recycling and reclamation and improved groundwater management will meet current and future water needs, while supporting our growing population and economy.</p>
<p>Dams Will Not Drought-Proof California â€“ Even if these new dams existed today, they would be just has empty as our existing reservoirs simply because they are dependent on rainfall. Even if we began building new dams today, they would not store any additional water for more than 20 years. Increased conservation, recycling, and reclamation can provide relatively immediate instant from drought.</p>
<p>Dams Are Inefficient And Costly â€“ New dams will cost billions of dollars and will not produce much additional water supply (the proposed Temperance Flat Dam will store a minor amount of water 1 year out of 4), primarily because we have already built more than 1,400 dams in California and all the most productive dam sites are taken. More than 2.5 million acre-feet of water evaporates from our current surface storage reservoirs every year. Most of the dams proposed by Governor Schwarzenegger are net energy consumers (they will not produce more energy).</p>
<p>Dams Are Destructive â€“ Existing dams block 90% salmon spawning habitat, have contributed to the extinction or decline of 69% of Californiaâ€™s native fish species (including salmon), and have resulted in the destruction of 90% of riverside habitat. The have also decimated the cultural heritage of Native American Tribes and the commercial fishing industry (20 years ago, there were 10,000 commercial salmon fishing boats in California, this year there are none, let&#8217;s hope there are more next year).</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49671</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49671</guid>
		<description>Bjorn, your facts are way out of date, if they were ever correct. This year, Westlands will use about 400,000 acre feet, not all of it from northern delivered supply. Under the most optimistic supply situation, they&#039;ll use about 1.5 million acre feet per year. &quot;SF, San Diego, and LA combined&quot; represents about 12 million people, probably something like 3 million acre feet per year, not including what those folks eat. To be sure, Westlands was a socialist boondoggle concocted by big-government Democrats, and should have been about one third of the size it is. Our State requires a lot of plumbing to make it work. The solutions some of us are trying to accomplish do not involve new water supplies per se, but making the existing system more flexible, safer, and better able to address the many needs of many users. You have to remember that environmental demands are a relatively new player in a 150 year ongoing play. For over a century, we had public policy and case law that demanded water rights holders put their water to &quot;beneficial use&quot; which meant doing damn near anything with it but leaving it where God intended it to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bjorn, your facts are way out of date, if they were ever correct. This year, Westlands will use about 400,000 acre feet, not all of it from northern delivered supply. Under the most optimistic supply situation, they&#8217;ll use about 1.5 million acre feet per year. &#8220;SF, San Diego, and LA combined&#8221; represents about 12 million people, probably something like 3 million acre feet per year, not including what those folks eat. To be sure, Westlands was a socialist boondoggle concocted by big-government Democrats, and should have been about one third of the size it is. Our State requires a lot of plumbing to make it work. The solutions some of us are trying to accomplish do not involve new water supplies per se, but making the existing system more flexible, safer, and better able to address the many needs of many users. You have to remember that environmental demands are a relatively new player in a 150 year ongoing play. For over a century, we had public policy and case law that demanded water rights holders put their water to &#8220;beneficial use&#8221; which meant doing damn near anything with it but leaving it where God intended it to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Chandler</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49669</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Chandler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49669</guid>
		<description>Yet another reason to love Westlands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet another reason to love Westlands.</p>
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		<title>By: bjorn</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49664</link>
		<dc:creator>bjorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49664</guid>
		<description>Hey Tom, Great article.  Water politics are so crazy.  Here are some interesting tid-bits... the proposed Temperance Flat dam, we figure, would hold water one out of every FOUR years... the farmers in the Westlands water district use more water than SF, San Diego and LA combined... LA is actually leading the state in water conservation having absorbed a growing population without using more water (thanks to lots of lawsuits, but still, it&#039;s a good thing).

Thanks for surfacing these issues.

B-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Tom, Great article.  Water politics are so crazy.  Here are some interesting tid-bits&#8230; the proposed Temperance Flat dam, we figure, would hold water one out of every FOUR years&#8230; the farmers in the Westlands water district use more water than SF, San Diego and LA combined&#8230; LA is actually leading the state in water conservation having absorbed a growing population without using more water (thanks to lots of lawsuits, but still, it&#8217;s a good thing).</p>
<p>Thanks for surfacing these issues.</p>
<p>B-</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Chandler</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49651</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Chandler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49651</guid>
		<description>Philip: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;I think weâ€™re at the point (and have been for a few years now) that there are sufficient Bay-Delta protections in place to ensure that a peripheral canal could not be operated in the way you suggest&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The last five years have seen &lt;i&gt;record&lt;/i&gt; amounts of water pumped from the Delta, and even after the collapse of several native species, Judge Wanger had to invalidate a &quot;biological opinion&quot; crafted by the water folks that would have permitted the removal of even &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; water. 

Thus, I&#039;m glad we agree on the necessity of safe conveyance, but we&#039;re clearly a long, long ways apart when it comes to whether sufficient protections for the Delta are in place. 

They clearly aren&#039;t.

The ugly truth is this; people living in the arid regions of California are going to have to make some accommodations with the fact they live in a desert. Otherwise, the peripheral canal will simply become a way to move more water out of the Delta - and a more efficient method by which the Delta becomes a salt marsh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip: </p>
<blockquote><p>I think weâ€™re at the point (and have been for a few years now) that there are sufficient Bay-Delta protections in place to ensure that a peripheral canal could not be operated in the way you suggest</p></blockquote>
<p>The last five years have seen <i>record</i> amounts of water pumped from the Delta, and even after the collapse of several native species, Judge Wanger had to invalidate a &#8220;biological opinion&#8221; crafted by the water folks that would have permitted the removal of even <i>more</i> water. </p>
<p>Thus, I&#8217;m glad we agree on the necessity of safe conveyance, but we&#8217;re clearly a long, long ways apart when it comes to whether sufficient protections for the Delta are in place. </p>
<p>They clearly aren&#8217;t.</p>
<p>The ugly truth is this; people living in the arid regions of California are going to have to make some accommodations with the fact they live in a desert. Otherwise, the peripheral canal will simply become a way to move more water out of the Delta &#8211; and a more efficient method by which the Delta becomes a salt marsh.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49648</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49648</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, I should have mentioned restoring the Delta, because it is obviously important, to the State and to me personally. I believe a properly operated peripheral canal, plus some additional &quot;off-stream&quot; storage in various locations, will allow far more flexibility in managing the Delta, in particular pump scheduling, with the result being a marked improvement of water quality and fish habitat. (And, of course, the pumps are but a small part of the insults that our anadramous fish have had to endure over the past century.) The present system is what a less culturally sensitive person than me would call a Mexican stand-off, with nobody getting nearly what they want.
I think we&#039;re at the point (and have been for a few years now) that there are sufficient Bay-Delta protections in place to ensure that a peripheral canal could not be operated in the way you suggest, i.e. diverting all of the Sac. into the pumps. Doing nothing is a very high stakes gamble. The votes, the power, and the money are all in the dry parts of our state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, I should have mentioned restoring the Delta, because it is obviously important, to the State and to me personally. I believe a properly operated peripheral canal, plus some additional &#8220;off-stream&#8221; storage in various locations, will allow far more flexibility in managing the Delta, in particular pump scheduling, with the result being a marked improvement of water quality and fish habitat. (And, of course, the pumps are but a small part of the insults that our anadramous fish have had to endure over the past century.) The present system is what a less culturally sensitive person than me would call a Mexican stand-off, with nobody getting nearly what they want.<br />
I think we&#8217;re at the point (and have been for a few years now) that there are sufficient Bay-Delta protections in place to ensure that a peripheral canal could not be operated in the way you suggest, i.e. diverting all of the Sac. into the pumps. Doing nothing is a very high stakes gamble. The votes, the power, and the money are all in the dry parts of our state.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Chandler</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49647</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Chandler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49647</guid>
		<description>Philip: The question isn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;whether&lt;/i&gt; water gets shipped south, it&#039;s more a matter of how much. 

Those of us in the North are skeptical of the peripheral canal because it&#039;s not hard to see &lt;i&gt;most&lt;/i&gt; of the Sacramento River being diverted and sent South in a massive canal, sparing residential and ag users the necessity of making any hard choices.

The problem isn&#039;t that people live in dry parts of the state. It&#039;s that they live in dry parts of the state and seemingly &lt;i&gt;fail to realize it&lt;/i&gt;. 

We keep hearing talk of conveyances and moving water south, but few even seem to pay lip service to restoring the delta.

You didn&#039;t. 

The days of the &quot;blank check&quot; are over, yet recent calls for conservation in the southland have led to instances of increased use. 

How are those of us who are concerned about the delta supposed to interpret that? Are we supposed to somehow grow excited about the prospect of sending even more water south - and watching the delta turn into a saltwater marsh while our native species wither?

The wacky weed, it turns out, has been smoked (heavily) for decades now, and while I hear lots of talk about the canal&#039;s benefits to the south, I hear little about how we&#039;re going to ensure the health of the delta.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip: The question isn&#8217;t <i>whether</i> water gets shipped south, it&#8217;s more a matter of how much. </p>
<p>Those of us in the North are skeptical of the peripheral canal because it&#8217;s not hard to see <i>most</i> of the Sacramento River being diverted and sent South in a massive canal, sparing residential and ag users the necessity of making any hard choices.</p>
<p>The problem isn&#8217;t that people live in dry parts of the state. It&#8217;s that they live in dry parts of the state and seemingly <i>fail to realize it</i>. </p>
<p>We keep hearing talk of conveyances and moving water south, but few even seem to pay lip service to restoring the delta.</p>
<p>You didn&#8217;t. </p>
<p>The days of the &#8220;blank check&#8221; are over, yet recent calls for conservation in the southland have led to instances of increased use. </p>
<p>How are those of us who are concerned about the delta supposed to interpret that? Are we supposed to somehow grow excited about the prospect of sending even more water south &#8211; and watching the delta turn into a saltwater marsh while our native species wither?</p>
<p>The wacky weed, it turns out, has been smoked (heavily) for decades now, and while I hear lots of talk about the canal&#8217;s benefits to the south, I hear little about how we&#8217;re going to ensure the health of the delta.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49646</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49646</guid>
		<description>The Delta is one earthquake away from cutting off nearly all water to Southern and Central California. Even without that, 20 million people and many billions in economic activity aren&#039;t going to just blow away.  People live in the dry parts of the state because of proximity to seaports and airports, neither of which are feasible in the wet parts of the state. It is necessary to move some water from the wet parts to the dry parts. If you think the environment would be better served by having those millions live in Shasta County, you are welcome to your opinion.
If we don&#039;t plan and engineer a proper conveyance in the Delta now, but wait for the disaster to strike, we will end up with some &quot;permanent emergency&quot; (think TSA and the Waw on Terra) fix that will never be changed. Sensible environmentalists realize this canal is a necessity.
Having a majority of our State&#039;s population out of water and out of work within a few days is not even halfway funny; anyone who thinks sensible environmental decisions will be made in that atmosphere needs to stop smoking wacky weed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Delta is one earthquake away from cutting off nearly all water to Southern and Central California. Even without that, 20 million people and many billions in economic activity aren&#8217;t going to just blow away.  People live in the dry parts of the state because of proximity to seaports and airports, neither of which are feasible in the wet parts of the state. It is necessary to move some water from the wet parts to the dry parts. If you think the environment would be better served by having those millions live in Shasta County, you are welcome to your opinion.<br />
If we don&#8217;t plan and engineer a proper conveyance in the Delta now, but wait for the disaster to strike, we will end up with some &#8220;permanent emergency&#8221; (think TSA and the Waw on Terra) fix that will never be changed. Sensible environmentalists realize this canal is a necessity.<br />
Having a majority of our State&#8217;s population out of water and out of work within a few days is not even halfway funny; anyone who thinks sensible environmental decisions will be made in that atmosphere needs to stop smoking wacky weed.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49629</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49629</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not really pro nuclear power, but I&#039;m okay with building nuclear facilities in SoCal to power desalination plants if that will stop any more water being sent south.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not really pro nuclear power, but I&#8217;m okay with building nuclear facilities in SoCal to power desalination plants if that will stop any more water being sent south.</p>
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		<title>By: SteelieRan</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49620</link>
		<dc:creator>SteelieRan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 01:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49620</guid>
		<description>This is an excellent and timely piece that I hope gets a maximum amount of exposure posssible. There are two large problems at work here; complacency and the all mighty dollar. All of the liberal views slant to the conservation angle which is great, there is no argument against conservation that will ever win a debate. But people are just to lazy and spoiled to ever effect any change without being forced. In our current age of Clintonism where our youth have learned that there are no real consequences to being less than truthful I am quite sure that public opinion polls will show that an overwhelming majority will respond conservation is &quot;the answer&quot; and that they themselves practice it. I do not believe this for a moment; the public at large are narcisists and they only really care about thier well being and if that spider in the pool bothers them they will purge it and refill without a second thought to the larger picture. I have over the last 4 years tried to change my ways and it is not as easy as most would think. It really takes a lot thought to analyze how your actions effect the big picture and I admit that when I run into a showerhead that does not produce enough psi to wash the soap film out of my ass crack then I get a little heated but it is not enough to deter me, I will soldier on.

The all mighty dollar is the real problem that will slow down any real change; it always is. You can really split the water problems here into 2 sub catagories - Agriculture and SoCal big business. Ag is a huge problem to deal with; it is California&#039;s identity to a large part and it is the vast majority of California&#039;s GDP. Nobody wants to pick on a farmer and I should know as I grew up in the Central Valley on a farm. Farmers definately have their challenges but there is also an &quot;us against them&quot; mentality that clouds judgement when they have to deal with environmental issues. Water is cheap to them; the government assures this (through subsidies) as food production is a public safety issue. But flood irrigation is an atrocity and most all tracks are set up this way; there has been little change to this area of infrastructure. Really why change to more efficient water delivery systems (drip irrigation for one) when water is so cheap to them? To implement any such system would be a huge capital expense to any operation and everyone I know complains about food prices now; This is a real catch-22 situation and any effective change will be slow and painful.
As far as SoCal big business; they need cheap labor to process, sell and ship all the crap they get from China (LA ports are by far the largest volume inbound in the world). To accomplish this they need people who can afford to live at the wages they pay and this partialy means affordable utilities. As we have already seen they will fight any change tooth and nail and they have deep pockets which means lawyers which leads to court battles and years of nothing but the same old thing.
One thing I wonder about but know nothing about is de-salinization. I know that Isreal and many middle-east countries get most of their water this way; why not SoCal? Most of the population lives relatively close to the ocean and they spend billions to pump our water over the grapevine so I can&#039;t imagine it would be more expensive. Just a thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an excellent and timely piece that I hope gets a maximum amount of exposure posssible. There are two large problems at work here; complacency and the all mighty dollar. All of the liberal views slant to the conservation angle which is great, there is no argument against conservation that will ever win a debate. But people are just to lazy and spoiled to ever effect any change without being forced. In our current age of Clintonism where our youth have learned that there are no real consequences to being less than truthful I am quite sure that public opinion polls will show that an overwhelming majority will respond conservation is &#8220;the answer&#8221; and that they themselves practice it. I do not believe this for a moment; the public at large are narcisists and they only really care about thier well being and if that spider in the pool bothers them they will purge it and refill without a second thought to the larger picture. I have over the last 4 years tried to change my ways and it is not as easy as most would think. It really takes a lot thought to analyze how your actions effect the big picture and I admit that when I run into a showerhead that does not produce enough psi to wash the soap film out of my ass crack then I get a little heated but it is not enough to deter me, I will soldier on.</p>
<p>The all mighty dollar is the real problem that will slow down any real change; it always is. You can really split the water problems here into 2 sub catagories &#8211; Agriculture and SoCal big business. Ag is a huge problem to deal with; it is California&#8217;s identity to a large part and it is the vast majority of California&#8217;s GDP. Nobody wants to pick on a farmer and I should know as I grew up in the Central Valley on a farm. Farmers definately have their challenges but there is also an &#8220;us against them&#8221; mentality that clouds judgement when they have to deal with environmental issues. Water is cheap to them; the government assures this (through subsidies) as food production is a public safety issue. But flood irrigation is an atrocity and most all tracks are set up this way; there has been little change to this area of infrastructure. Really why change to more efficient water delivery systems (drip irrigation for one) when water is so cheap to them? To implement any such system would be a huge capital expense to any operation and everyone I know complains about food prices now; This is a real catch-22 situation and any effective change will be slow and painful.<br />
As far as SoCal big business; they need cheap labor to process, sell and ship all the crap they get from China (LA ports are by far the largest volume inbound in the world). To accomplish this they need people who can afford to live at the wages they pay and this partialy means affordable utilities. As we have already seen they will fight any change tooth and nail and they have deep pockets which means lawyers which leads to court battles and years of nothing but the same old thing.<br />
One thing I wonder about but know nothing about is de-salinization. I know that Isreal and many middle-east countries get most of their water this way; why not SoCal? Most of the population lives relatively close to the ocean and they spend billions to pump our water over the grapevine so I can&#8217;t imagine it would be more expensive. Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: KayakCountry - All things Kayak &#187; Comment on Californiaâ€™s Water Wars: Can We Save Fisheries and &#8230;</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49617</link>
		<dc:creator>KayakCountry - All things Kayak &#187; Comment on Californiaâ€™s Water Wars: Can We Save Fisheries and &#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49617</guid>
		<description>[...] chuck wrote an interesting post today onHere&#8217;s a quick excerptImagine the Hetch Hetchy valley with the Tuolumne river running through it. However, I think that our water shortage this year is a political maneuver designed to build support for erecting about three more dams. &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] chuck wrote an interesting post today onHere&#8217;s a quick excerptImagine the Hetch Hetchy valley with the Tuolumne river running through it. However, I think that our water shortage this year is a political maneuver designed to build support for erecting about three more dams. &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kentucky Jim</title>
		<link>http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-49616</link>
		<dc:creator>Kentucky Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://troutunderground.com/2008/07/19/californias-water-wars-can-we-save-fisheries-and-solve-water-problems/#comment-49616</guid>
		<description>Excellent piece, Tom.  When I moved to southern California in 1978, I was shocked to see shopkeepers hosing off the sidewalks in front of their shops; I thought, &quot;Why can&#039;t they use brooms?&quot;  I haven&#039;t seen that lately, but the same mentality still prevails, I believe.  Many people who move to southern California from back east don&#039;t really understand that California is one of the eleven western &quot;arid&quot; states.  To them, that means nothing.  Water comes from the tap, you know.  And San Franciscans are not without sin, as I&#039;m sure you know.  Imagine the Hetch Hetchy valley with the Tuolumne river running through it.  

However, I think that our water shortage this year is a political maneuver designed to build support for erecting about three more dams.  

Kern county grows more cotton than any county in the south; of course, we then ship it all to China.  Not only does the Kern river never see the Pacific ocean, it never sees highway 99.  Just a bridge over a dry sandy depression where a river once was. 

For my part, I don&#039;t flush everytime I take a leak.  If I could find one who wasn&#039;t crazy, I&#039;d be happy to shower with a friend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent piece, Tom.  When I moved to southern California in 1978, I was shocked to see shopkeepers hosing off the sidewalks in front of their shops; I thought, &#8220;Why can&#8217;t they use brooms?&#8221;  I haven&#8217;t seen that lately, but the same mentality still prevails, I believe.  Many people who move to southern California from back east don&#8217;t really understand that California is one of the eleven western &#8220;arid&#8221; states.  To them, that means nothing.  Water comes from the tap, you know.  And San Franciscans are not without sin, as I&#8217;m sure you know.  Imagine the Hetch Hetchy valley with the Tuolumne river running through it.  </p>
<p>However, I think that our water shortage this year is a political maneuver designed to build support for erecting about three more dams.  </p>
<p>Kern county grows more cotton than any county in the south; of course, we then ship it all to China.  Not only does the Kern river never see the Pacific ocean, it never sees highway 99.  Just a bridge over a dry sandy depression where a river once was. </p>
<p>For my part, I don&#8217;t flush everytime I take a leak.  If I could find one who wasn&#8217;t crazy, I&#8217;d be happy to shower with a friend.</p>
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