Comments on: Did AFFTA Lose Fly Fishing’s Trade Show Death Match? (Furimsky Says YES)

By: With Fly Fishing Retailer Show in Decline, AFFTA Board Makes Bold Move, Then Tells No One About It | The Trout Underground Fly Fishing Blog

Fri, 23 Oct 2009 22:37:55 +0000

[...] hopes they’ve got a plan, but then again, this is the same group that thought it was a good idea to go head-to-head with Chuck Furimsky’s Fly Fishing Show in the consumer show arena, and got their fingers [...]

By: Banning

Banning — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:37:27 +0000

Chuck,

We’re already on to another show season! I hope it is pructive and successfu at all your shows. I’ll hope to run into you in Denver or Charlotte.

Banning

By: Frank

Frank — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:57:48 +0000

I am wondering why it took Mr. Furimsky YEARS to come to the conclusion that including more to bring new people (who may purchase nothing) into our sport at his shows, was a sensible notion?

Would he have seen the light without the scare of his life?

Perhaps he, like Ramsey, is just in it (the shows not the sport) for the money!

By: Sales Rep

Sales Rep — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:46:23 +0000

As a sales rep and exhibitor at the FFS, I need to say that there is too much blame being put on the producers of the FFS for any lack of influx of new attendees or greater sales. The FFS creates a venue for its exhibitors. Just as a landlord may have a space available on a sweet corner location with good parking in a affluent area of town. Would you call your landlord and complain that your business wasn’t doing well and you expect him to do more for you? I have been in the fly fishing industry for 23 years now and I know of 3 shops in the whole CO area that are creative in their attempts to grow business. All of the rest follow similar models, expect the companies they represent to create their business, complain about their competition but succumb to the same pressures from the manufactures thus causing the similarities in each business. Competition is good (when its not against you) and perhaps that has sparked some new ideas with the FFS. Or perhaps it is due to a new staff of employees with the FFS. I would favor the second. New people always bring new ideas. Failed ideas (the one time attempt at the AFFTA show which would continue if it didn’t fail) always bring new employees (new AFFTA pres). I think AFFTA had an unfair advantage with the manufacturers and levered, even scared some business to exhibit at their show. That in itself is not a free market. AFFTA was created to promote the fly fishing industry and I haven’t seen any results as of yet. The Fly Fishing Show is a private business and is not responsible to promote the sport any more than any other business, yet it chooses to donate large amounts of booth space, money and time to do so. I suppose they could cut out the free booths for non-profits to have more space to test out a new rod and make the manufactures happy but they are doing this out of a passion for a sport that drew them into the industry like many of us. If you want to get rich, do something else or work your hardest at making your business, or booth at a show, better than the next guys. Rather than motivate the FFS, I hope this “furball” energizes each individual involved in fly fishing to help advance the sport.

By: Chuck

Chuck — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:18:05 +0000

I read the comments from “Banning” on May 29th and would like to respond.
“I need the industry to sustain what’s existing and create growth in other areas.”
That is good advice, however by attempting to directly compete with a successfully established show, not exhibiting your new products at that show, is not sustaining what is existing.
“The Fly Fishing Show in Denver has not changed and does not effectively promote growth (if at all) in the Industry.”
In Denver, as in all my show locations we offer daily classes, 6-10 educational talks an hour that are usually standing room only, casting demonstrations, travel tips, and the busiest tying aisles helping everyone learn you’ll see anywhere. When “Banning” says “OK so I was working so I may have missed something.” I agree with him or her for sure.
“I don’t like anybody wasting money.”
Well that point should have been made earlier. AFFTA will confess they didn’t turn a profit, but just can’t share exactly how much of the member’s dues were lost with their one year expo.
“The Fly Fishing Show has obviously listened to the outcry for new participation in the sport.”
Yes, we listen, of course. That’s why the show was started years ago to give our sport its own recognition. It has grown across the country giving a much needed growing boost to fly fishing in participation and financial growth.
“Emotions can blind a person from seeing the best decision. Real Estate deals with emotions vs. Bankers are simply not.”
I don’t get the point. Does he or she mean I should be more “bank like” in running my show and less emotional? Sorry, I care about my exhibitors and celebrities. I don’t treat them like I own their mortgage, but as part of our show family. That’s why when you ask a person who attended both shows, they like the feel of the Fly Fishing Show much better.
Another reply by Banning on May 30th also needs answered.
“I do wish the numbers of attendees, dollars spent, or similar numbers between the two shows were available-unlikely so I’ll contemplate.”
You may not know that the AFFTA board signs a confidentiality contract that forbids them to disclose what goes on in their decision making meetings. Of course, once they vote, your question or suggestions are useless in changing their unanimous plans. In my case, you don’t have to contemplate, just call me. All I ask is for you to identify yourself and describe your intentions.
I will tell you our Denver show had about three times the attendees and over twice as many exhibitors as the AFFTA expo. They did have more water; I’ll credit them for that.
Our educational talks had 100-150 on average, the expo I was told had some empty rooms. The same scenario goes for the fly tiers. Our aisle was packed; their tiers discussed techniques among themselves. All this comes from reliable sources I did not hire to report back to me.
As for profit from exhibitors I don’t ask. But they said on the most part it was their most profitable show for years. At AFFTA it all depends who you ask. One big rep in the area told me it was awesome, and minutes before saw someone and said it was very slow. It depends who you talk with, as in all politics.
I’d like to close with some general facts for “Banning” and another that wrote “Tucker.” It seems they both have been fooled by the propaganda from AFFTA.
AFFTA did their show for one reason. I know this for a fact. Robert Ramsey admitted it and so did board members. The reason was to generate revenue foe their beleaguered treasury. If they could knock me out of business any profit would be for them. When people started talking about this being unethical the reason was quickly adjusted. Now AFFTA was doing their expo to benefit our sport and bring new life and beginners aboard. A noble mask for the real reason-money!
Over the years my shows have introduced 100,000+ people to our sport, made millions of tackle sales, and has given fly fishing an identity nationwide that deserved its own show. For AFFTA to say I haven’t done anything to promote the sport is unbelievable. I’m sorry they fooled some and it seems a few are still believers. To turn away from a 100% fly fishing venue to find converts at a sportsmen show is not a great plan. The I.S.E. is a well established show, but it isn’t where people go that want to learn about fly fishing. What I would have done, but I’m not AFFTA, is admit the expo wasn’t all we hoped, and join forces with the Fly Fishing Show. That’s where the crowd will be for fly fishing and where the money will be spent on tackle and trips. But if you come, please check you egos and politics at the door. We’re here for the sport, not the competition.

Chuck Furimsky
The Fly Fishing Show Director

By: Tom Chandler

Tom Chandler — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:38:18 +0000

Banning: “This maybe a close to perfect quote for where we are at, as the dramatic competition for shows of last year has now subsided.”

I believe we may have arrived at the point we should have started at: AFFTA gets its educational show presence; FFS invites the FFF to its shows; and the AFFTA board (hopefully) gains a little perspective.

By: Banning

Banning — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:16:20 +0000

Dave,

I truely thank you for joining our conversation, as only very few have your view and type of connection to this matter.

I wanted to clarify on my earlier comment you mentioned in your response, “from all this the FFS will be a better show nationally, the movement towards expanding the consumer base has started (hopefully the environment is in there too!) and therefore the Industry will be better off.”

To more clearly state, I am hoping the enviromental conservation mentality and actions will continue to expand from its current state with growth of a consumer base no matter who, which, or how. I did not have any intenetion to infer that you or the FFS hasn’t done enough in this respect. I have attended a few of your shows and can very much appreciate your efforts to include conservation orangizations in the respective towns. Also, many great things can be said for your personal and local conservation efforts.

Lastly, in response to a quote you used, “Competition has been shown to be useful up to a certain point and no further, but cooperation, which is the thing we must strive for today, begins where competition leaves off. “-Franklin D. Roosevelt. This maybe a close to perfect quote for where we are at, as the dramatic competition for shows of last year has now subsided. Would you agree that cooperation is next? Or, did the competition go too far?

By: Tom Chandler

Tom Chandler — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:24:13 +0000

Tucker: You said: “Although I don’t agree with you on all levels, I can respect where you and the FFS are coming from.”

I appreciate that, but want to make it clear I don’t have any connection to FFS. I’ve talked to Chuck Furimsky three times now, which is exactly one more than I spoke with Mr. Ramsay.

My perspective is mine only, and I don’t speak for the FFS.

By: Dave

Dave — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:28:50 +0000

Competition breeds a better product- as Banning started his comment to the “Metal Cage Death Match” Article on the Trout Underground. I quote: “Competition has been shown to be useful up to a certain point and no further, but cooperation, which is the thing we must strive for today, begins where competition leaves off. “-Franklin D. Roosevelt A divided market is still a divided market, and fly fishing, no matter how passionate we are about it, is a very small niche in the outdoor, recreation and fishing markets.
AFFTA has a board of 15, a full time President, The Fly Fishing Show has me (Dave the manager), Chuck, his son Ben and his wife Janet (who works the ticket counter at the shows) and a friend or two per show helping to set up, not sure how that is fair competition but hey.
As far as the converts! Big sportsmen shows-this was tried for years, and simply put, Fly Fishing gets swallowed up in the larger shows. The Fly Fishing Show has always focused our shows on 100% fly fishing. If an enthusiast brings a buddy, that guy or gal is more likely to follow up and learn to enjoy the sport with a mentor, than if they walk out with a freebie bag. The Fly Fishing Show is trying to get new participants into the sport, always have, always will. Our effort with FFF is something that has worked at some shows in the past and we are trying to make it work at all the shows across the nation.
My grandfather once told me that there were two kinds of people: those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was much less competition.
Indira Gandhi
The Fly Fishing Show always looks to improve our show, introduce new people, and make it a fun event for all. I read the mission statement of AFFTA and have a hard time pinpointing what they accomplish with members’ dues. And the end of each year there should be a report for one and all to view of their accomplishments. FFF, TU, and any other group/association do this. This is the Industry, as opposed to the mom and pop operation, plus one ugly secretary (me) that is The Fly Fishing Show. And isn’t it the mom and pop operations that are hurting most in fly fishing? Think of how many shops have gone under, we have. These are friends, colleagues and fishing buddies. What is “the industry” doing to help them?
Banning’s May 30th reply “from all this the FFS will be a better show nationally, the movement towards expanding the consumer base has started (hopefully the environment is in there too!) and therefore the Industry will be better off.” I volunteer for environmental and Conservation issues, and have done so for 20 years, and still serve on numerous boards, pertaining to water reclamation, land conservation and biological diversity and native re-introduction. Tip O’Niel said “all politics is local” well all conservation starts in one’s own back yard. The Fly Fishing Show offers space at our shows for conservation groups all across the country to get their message out. You’ve read our work force, we can’t do any more than provide groups with the venue and the crowd, many groups and associations take advantage of this offer. I have asked the same question and not one responder who defends AFFTA can answer it, “What has AFFTA done to further is mission and goals”? As a 501 c 6 they should be a heck of a lot more transparent than they are. Their decision making should be available and their accomplishments should be yelled from the mountain tops. They are not. Every spring we read about the national casting call, and every fall we hear about the fly tackle retailer (they have someone else running). If there are other accomplishments out there I sure would like to see them.
In closing from AFFTA’s webpage: AFFTA’s Mission
To Promote the Sustained Growth of the Fly Fishing Industry
AFFTA’s Strategic Objectives:
1. Grow Consumer Demand for Fly Fishing Products and Services

2. Enhance the Growth and Professionalism of Fly Fishing Business

3. Support the Protection, Enhancement and Restoration of Fishing Waters
I’m still waiting to see ONE accomplishment that fulfills anyone of the above bullets.

Dave
Manager of The Fly Fishing Show

By: Tucker

Tucker — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:52:29 +0000

Tom, thank you for your insightful and thoughtful remarks. Although I don’t agree with you on all levels, I can respect where you and the FFS are coming from. My main point will remain that if the FFS had been fulfilling the demands of the fly fishing public in Denver, as well as the needs of all industry organizations and businesses, then I don’t think AFFTA would have been at all interested in holding a show in January in Denver. AFFTA saw what they thought was a good opportunity to provide a trade show experience that was better and different then what was currently being offered. Many retailers and major manufacturers dropped out of the FFS to represent themselves at the AFFTA event because they believed it was ultimately better for them and the industry. It will be interesting to see this year if retailers and manufacturers stay loyal to one show, or attend both… only time will tell.

I will agree with you that AFFTA was setting a poor precedent and ultimately gave themselves a black eye by going into direct competition with the FFS the way they did. But that is what AFFTA chose to do, and there isn’t much any of us can do about it now. This entire situation has created an overly negative and hurtful image to our industry. In the end, it doesn’t matter who comes out as the perceived victor from last year. My true hope is that AFFTA/ISE and the FFS can put on shows next year that will complement each other, not compete with each other. The last thing our small industry needs is the perception among the general fishing public that the battle of the consumer fly fishing trade shows will continue on in 2009. Instead, we as an industry must demonstrate to the public that we are committed to the growth and preservation of fly fishing.

By: tarpon_guy

tarpon_guy — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:10:49 +0000

From the stand point of someone within the retail side of the fly fishing industry, there are a couple of items that have not been touched upon in this post (or for that matter many outer posts) that may very well have weighed very heavily on any and all decisions regarding AFFTA’s & Ramsay’s choices, both past and future.

Available dates at a quality venue in Denver (the Convention Center). I suspect that both this year and last year, the available dates at the CC were very limited. It is my understanding that the only dates available this year in January were for the weekend after the First, requiring vender set-up on New Year’s Day. That is something not very likely to happen.

Consider yourself actually holding the post of President of AFFTA and decide how long you would actually like to be responsible. The compensation in very marginal at best (or as in the past, virtually non-existent), the necessary input effort and time spent could be considered immense and the ultimately whatever you do will be scrutinized and criticized by at least half of the people in and out of the industry. And this is an industry never consider to be short on opinions or egos.

Just things to consider and ponder…

By: Brian Bennett

Brian Bennett — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:10:35 +0000

Let your voice be heard.

http://www.affta.com/additional.php?recKey=5

By: Tom Chandler

Tom Chandler — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:04:41 +0000

Tucker: I’ve only got a few minutes before heading out, but wanted to address a couple of points. First:

If the FFS wasn’t helping benefiting or heling progress the sport, which I think we are all in aggreement on, then I believe AFFTA had every right to want to enter the show market in Denver.

I’m a little astonished by this statement. First, Ramsay admitted in our interview that growing the sport wasn’t AFFTA’s only goal; they also wanted to own a chain of consumer shows so the association could enjoy the benefits of that cash flow.

With the “we only want to grow the sport” moral high ground vanishing fast in the rear view mirror, I have to ask how you’d feel if AFFTA — with the backing of fly fishing’s biggest companies — decided your shop wasn’t doing enough to move fly rods, and opened a competing shop just down the street (and oh yes, you couldn’t carry rods from its manufacturers).

The idea that AFFTA decides who’s doing enough for the sport and who isn’t doesn’t fly; it falls far outside their mission.

In addition, I have to disagree with this:

I do think that blame can be put on both the FFS and AFFTA for creating a divided and polarized show experience in 2008.

I just don’t see this. AFFTA created the divided experience, not FFS. Trade associations don’t typically launch themselves into direct competition within their industry. It’s a bad precedent.

Crediting AFFTA with resolving it by folding their show into the ISE show is logic stretched beyond the breaking point.

The AFFTA show simply didn’t fly; taken as a whole, the reports from showgoers on the Internet suggest better attendance at FFS. Given the acrimony, nightmarish PR situation, sudden departure of Ramsay and utter lack of transparency from AFFTA, I’m willing to say they lost this fight, and didn’t have the stomach to continue (and rightly so).

My original point remains; if AFFTA wanted to grow the sport, there are a lot of other — and better — avenues open to them. Evidence pretty clearly suggests this whole situation was more about a revenue stream than it was about growing the sport, which could have been better accomplished any number of ways

By: Tucker

Tucker — Fri, 30 May 2008 19:23:25 +0000

I have to say that I would have to agree with Banning on this topic. To say that the AFFTA show failed, and using the departure of Robert Ramsey as your main piece of evidence of this seems a bit short minded and biased to me.

I own a fly shop in Denver, and as a result had a lot of contact with show participants during and after the dueling show week-end. In the end, I would have to say that it was a 50-50 split between people as to what show they liked more. Their responses seemed to be totally dependent on what their reasoning was to go to one or both shows. People looking for tying demos, discounted gear, and good deals at fishing lodges and guide services seemed to all prefer the FFS. Conversely, participants looking to learn more about the sport, as well as those looking to try and learn more about new gear all prefered the AFFTA show. So in the end, I think both shows were able to find a a niche for their individual shows.

I agree that the real question should be which show did the most good for progressing the sport of fly fishing, as well as getting new and experienced anglers more excited about the sport. To me, it seems that the AFFTA show did a better job of this. In any business environment, change and competition is good. It keeps everybody on their toes, and ultimately produces a better product for the consumer. I will never condone the way in which AFFTA approached the idea of having a consumer show in Denver, but I strongly dissagree that their move was unjustified and wrong. If the FFS wasn’t helping benefiting or heling progress the sport, which I think we are all in aggreement on, then I believe AFFTA had every right to want to enter the show market in Denver.
I do think that blame can be put on both the FFS and AFFTA for creating a divided and polarized show experience in 2008. In the end though, it was AFFTA who chose to pair their show with the ISE, ultimately fixing the overall problem. They recognized that having dueling shows over one week-end wasn’t productive, and took the path of finding a way to make their show better and more successful, all while benefiting the fly fishing industry as a whole. The FFS’s move to join with the Federation of Fly Fishers seems to be more of a counter move to try and stay competitive with the AFFTA/ISE show in 2009, then a move that will benefit show participants or fly fishing industry.

In the end, the only real measure of success of these shows is the hard numbers, which will probably never be available to us. Ultimately we will probably not know the true victor for a few more years, when the Colorado fly fishing public has the ability to chose through participation which show is the best. So to return to the wrestling Death Match analogy, I would have to say that we have only seen round 1, and thus I think we should be wary of prematurely crowning one show the victor and one the loser.

By: Banning

Banning — Fri, 30 May 2008 18:05:42 +0000

Thanks for your perspective, information, and thoughts. I enjoyed reading and I would like to make a few comments.

I found it interesting that Ramsay candidly stated their purpose was to directly compete with The Fly Fishing Show (FFS). I does make sense, as it is the only national show therefore the only competition. I do wish the numbers of attendees, dollars spent, or similar numbers between the two shows were available – unlikely so I’ll contemplate.

My personal experience was that attendance was close in numbers and probably leaned towards the FFS. The type of attendees was different in that greater number of greenhorns attended AFFTA. However, it’s important to add that I believe more dollars were spent at FFS due to more retailers (sellers) and a consumer comfort level built form a history of FFS. If AFFTA continued as an independent show we’d see a shift within a couple years, but there’s other opportunity with ISE.

Introducing a new show will undoubtedly have trails, tribulations, and a learning curve. It’s wishful thinking to hit a homerun the first time at bat. FFS has faced these and failed (Dallas as an example). They have also (probably) lost money during building what are now successful shows. During the learning curve everyone tries and figures out if their beating a bush hiding birds or just beating a bush. Putting weight on Ramsay’s departure due to the shows failure is too speculative for me to grasp, though it may have been stated and I don’t know about it.

The 2008 AFFTA consumer show was a great happening (with a learning curve) that created positive change. From all of this the FFS will be a better show nationally, the movement towards expanding the consumer base has started (hopefully the environment is in there too!), and therefore, we as an industry will be better off.